Episode Transcript – How Leaders Successfully Navigate Chaos

[00:00:00] Besty Cerulo - Host: Welcome to Room at the Table, an opportunity for you to join me, Betsy Sarlo and my guests for conversations about creating equitable and inclusive workplaces where leaders rise above mediocrity and our teams thrive. Pull up a chair. There's always room at the table. Welcome to another Meaningful Conversation on Room at the Table.

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[00:00:26] I am Betsy Cerulo, your host, and welcome to my guest today, Dr. Steve Yacovelli, owner and principal of Top Dog Learning Group. Today we're talking about how. Leaders can successfully navigate through chaos. So pull up a chair, enjoy your favorite beverage, and let's get started. Welcome my friend. Hello, Betsy.

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[00:00:49] It's so good to see you. Aw, same here. And it, this is so befitting that we are having our conversation during this time. And that we, that [00:01:00] our podcast is gonna show up during Pride Month because whatever's going out on the world, our community has a lot of pride and a lot of strength. Right? Yes. Very much so.

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[00:01:09] Yeah. Yeah. So I know as we, as we go on in our conversation, Steve will talk more about what you do and the impact you have for companies. But what I wanna start with, since we're talking about leadership. And chaos. What do you see occurs for leaders when chaos lands on your path? 

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[00:01:28] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Oh, that's such a good question and, and sadly, uh, as, as time ebbs and flows, uh, throughout our, our respective, um, professional journeys, you see this happen.

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[00:01:38] Chaos pops its ugly head. And, you know, there's the, I think they, they attribute to, to Socrates that the only constant is change or. And many people have kind of said something like that over the years, and it's very true. And, and I think now more than ever, one of the things that, uh, smart leaders really embrace is, is one, knowing that you know what is now will not necessarily be what's going to be [00:02:00] tomorrow, but more importantly, how do you set yourself up as well as your team and those around you to be resilient when whatever change comes, comes a knocking.

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[00:02:08] And I think, um, smart leaders are already thinking about those ways. Uh, change is not, not comfortable for a lot of folks. I mean, it hits. That, that cave brain of ours, it makes us feel quote unquote unsafe. Um, but how do you set yourself up so that you're, you're flexing those resiliency muscles regardless if it's a changing time or not.

[00:02:26] I. 

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[00:02:26] Besty Cerulo - Host: Right. Yeah. You know, interestingly enough, this morning I read an article from Fast Company and it was talking about, uh, the top end Navy Seals and about chaos, and they could have, there was one, uh, Navy Seal in particular. Everything across the board was perfect in turn in terms of credentials, but when it came to the plan being chaotic and really running awry, he just couldn't.

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[00:02:55] Keep up with it. And, and I, and I think too, [00:03:00] in this environment, we can have the best laid out plans and it's how we respond to the chaos. So, you know, in your work. At Top Dog, what practices are you suggesting to have our organizations and ourselves on Smoother waters? Yeah. As often as we can. 

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[00:03:18] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: No, I, it, it, it's, it's another great question.

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[00:03:21] One of the things that we do within the business eo, and if I can just back up for a little bit, I. Um, kind of talk about where our doghouse sits for those who have no idea, they're like, what's this dog trainer doing on Betsy's podcast? I know I don't train dogs. Uh, we train humans. Uh, I've been doing this, um, as a, as a profession in some way, shape or form for about 30 years, doing my own gig for about 17.

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[00:03:39] But I always say that at Top Dog, our, our doghouse sits in the center for very different but insanely complimentary areas. We focus on what we call essential leadership. So that kind of, that leadership one-on-one stuff that a lot of people who are promoted in the workplace maybe didn't study how to be an effective leader.

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[00:03:54] They studied. To be an awesome accountant and all of a sudden they're head of the people and they're like, what do I do? So we kind of help them [00:04:00] kind of guide along. We do, um, what we used to call inclusive leadership. Now we're calling it welcoming leadership to get away from some of those naughty words these days.

[00:04:07] But really how do leaders, uh, create that sense of belonging for anyone within their workplace? Doesn't matter who they are. Uh, we focus of course on, uh, LGBTQ plus leadership. My personal area passion, uh, a lot of my books and my keynotes are focused around how we empower our rainbow family, as well as our awesome allies to be more, uh, more.

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[00:04:25] More inclusive and more successful. And then what we're talking about right now is resilient leadership. How do we set ourselves up as leaders, uh, as well as our teams to be resilient in times of change? And, and, and we do, uh, these four areas and a bunch of different channels. You know, we do keynotes, training classes, all that good stuff and, and all that.

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[00:04:41] But one of the things that, I bring this, I bring this up because when we talk about, uh, resilient leadership, we actually do a lot of conversations with leaders, especially now mm-hmm. Um, on how you start to have those conversations with, with your team. And one of the ways we approach. To is, is let's talk about just the top three, the top three strategies that you can [00:05:00] use to build you and your team's, uh, resiliency muscles.

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[00:05:03] So it's things like having that positive perspective. It's really having that, what we call a healthy self-concept, and it's really getting yourself comfortable with that, that uncertainty or that ambiguity. And so we channel our energy there. First, because the idea is if you can get these three under your belt and you can say, yeah, you know, this discomfort, um, having, having comfort with this uncertainty, this ambiguity, great, then we can move into that, that times of change and kind of rinse and repeat and, and, and flex those resiliency muscles accordingly.

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[00:05:31] Besty Cerulo - Host: You know, when I see you brought up those three areas and the comfort, uh, comfort with uncertainty, there's nothing about leadership that's certain ex Right. Except how you respond to it. And I, you know, I have certainly, like many of us have been tested over since January and I find that. I'm getting used to uncertainty and it [00:06:00] also helps me to, to think more broadly.

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[00:06:04] So I keep, so when I've been hit with a couple of curve balls, I keep thinking, okay, if I didn't have these curve balls, I wouldn't be learning something new. It may not feel good, but that's the way, that's the self-talk I have to use to get myself to the other side of it. Because, like you said about being positive.

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[00:06:22] It may not feel real positive out there, but when you're leading a team, they're looking to us as the leaders to navigate through, and if we are panicked, then. It's gonna just seep into the environment. 

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[00:06:38] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. And, and, and just, you know, when I, when we talk about, and this class I created, um, years ago, uh, prior to starting my own gig, one of my, my stops was at IBM and I was a change management consultant.

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[00:06:48] And that's where I really fell into the concept of understanding resiliency, because, you know, at, at the time, uh. My, my awesome IBM uh, tech friends would sit there and they'd create some really amazing technical [00:07:00] solution. My team was in charge of getting the humans to use it, and so we had to go in and understand, okay, you know, so how are people thinking?

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[00:07:07] What else is in the environment for them? You know, at one point we were on a client engagement, and we were doing this one. It was, it was a, um, a utility company. We were changing some of their business processes pretty significantly, but we are one of 17. Enterprise wide change is happening at that one moment.

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[00:07:21] We're just like, who authorized these? This is really bad because humans have a saturation point and you know, depending on your resiliency, you, your, your saturation point may be one changing thing versus some others that might have like maybe five or six, and that's just the workplace. Then you think about the changes that are happening at home and in our society and all these.

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[00:07:40] So, uh, you know, I can really see where some people who, who, especially, you know, who maybe don't look at the world in that most positive light, that that glass is always half empty and, you know, positivity. It's not like, you know, my former Disney coming out, oh boy, everything's great. It's not that it's okay, well that was a crappy day, but what's a good thing that came out of it that's [00:08:00] resiliency.

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[00:08:00] And if we as leaders can kind of train both ourselves and our teams to look at it. Even in those, as that children's book says, the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day, if anyone knows that book. Um, even when we have those days and we can say, you know what, okay, let what went well today. Fantastic. Now we're gonna move that needle a little bit better when resiliency, uh, is, is often needed in the workplace.

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[00:08:21] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:08:21] Besty Cerulo - Host: You know, in our weekly staff meeting, at the beginning of the meeting, we start with what are you most proud of? Wow. And then we talk about what are the challenges and disappointments, because there's, there's always a balance. Mm-hmm. I would love to come to meetings with no challenge and no disappointment, but it's part of life.

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[00:08:42] Some days everything goes exactly how I want it. It is perfect, and other days it just gets totally sideswiped. And again, as a leader, it's all about our response to it, not necessarily the reaction. 'cause I think I'm more resilient when I [00:09:00] respond than when I react. 

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[00:09:02] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. And, and what's It's funny, you know, this ties with a lot of the other things that we talk about in, in.

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[00:09:07] Our leadership programming. And if you're not watching the video, I have a graphic up here. These are the six leadership competencies that, in my experience, really make or break the difference. They are authenticity, courage, empathy, communication, relationships, and culture. And yes, if you're looking, they are through the rainbow flag because I actually use that in a lot of our lgbtq plus leadership and my, my books.

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[00:09:27] But these are the six that I see regardless of who you are, make or break. Um, and, and what I hear you saying, Betsy, is, is that empathy one. You know, if, if we let ourselves get emotionally hijacked when we're in that stressful time, uh, when change is happening or the day's not going exactly how we expect it, there's that, that handling ambiguity thing.

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[00:09:45] Yeah. Then that's gonna impact the rest of the folks around us. 'cause emotions are contagious. Mm-hmm. And that could be a good contagion or bad contagion and we can kind of manage that, uh, as successful leaders. 

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[00:09:55] Besty Cerulo - Host: You know, when I look at communication, I think about some [00:10:00] incidents recently where I had to.

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[00:10:03] Just handle something that occurred. I notice that when I see people's emails that are filled with a lot of emotion, and believe me, we have emotion. I will sometimes write an email that's the communication is filled with the emotion. I, I don't have the person's name and the two, but I get it out and 

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[00:10:25] Besty Cerulo - Host: then I write.

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[00:10:27] Just the facts. 

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[00:10:28] Yeah. 

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[00:10:29] Besty Cerulo - Host: And I find that there is less charge for me when it's the facts and the response that I get back. The other person may spin or do whatever, but I have kind of cut through the nonsense. Yeah. And get right to the solution. And it's not an insensitive email, it's just. Here's the facts.

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[00:10:47] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. Well, but, but what you just did there, Betsy, is one thing that some leaders really struggle with and that's having self-awareness. Yes. And saying, you know, like, you know, some people just sit and pull that keyboard and mm-hmm. And, and they don't, they do [00:11:00] hit the enter key or they do have someone in the two, and then it sends off and then they realize.

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[00:11:04] Maybe the error in their mistakes. So having that self-awareness and self, that self-discipline to say, you know what? I can see that I'm in an emotional space right now. And having that emotional intelligence that you know, I'm gonna hold off and not hit enter. Yeah, I'm gonna save that as a draft and then revisit that when you know you had that coffee or whatever beverage of choice.

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[00:11:22] And then you sit down and like you said, revisit it and then say, okay, here's the facts now and here, let's kind of move forward. 

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[00:11:27] Besty Cerulo - Host: Because I find that there's a lot of time spent towards. Reading between the lines when communication isn't, doesn't have that mindfulness or that awareness. 

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[00:11:38] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:11:39] Besty Cerulo - Host: And when you're in chaos, you don't have a lot of time to, what is she thinking or what is he really thinking?

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[00:11:48] You ask. And many times I will tell people, whether it's on my staff or any of our contractors. Pick up the phone and have the conversation with someone. 

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[00:11:59] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: And, and I also [00:12:00] think that, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And I also think too that, you know, our own personal bias on the channels of communication, we prefer kind of get in there as well.

[00:12:07] You know, I, I, I don't know how many times, especially from a personal perspective, I'll get that text message like, Kay, I'm like. Oh, is that okay? Are you mad because it was short? Yeah, exactly. And so, so you know, we, we default to the channels. We have a bias towards maybe not necessarily thinking about the channel that's one for the recipient or recipients is maybe better.

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[00:12:26] And then two, you know, what is the right channel for this particular message. Not just the preference of the person, but you know, hey, I'm trying to talk about something very sensitive. Maybe that's having a town hall meeting with me and the team, or a Zoom or whatever. Or it's like, you know what, send an email.

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[00:12:41] We'll work just fine. 

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[00:12:43] Besty Cerulo - Host: I, I marvel, and I'm horrified sometimes with the nature of some of the emails that I received back, because I think to myself, the person that has sent it, don't they realize that now it's in writing [00:13:00] and. You don't get rid of it. So here's, it's your proof of your behavior. I, I know, I, I, you know, I, it's, it's almost as though there should con, even now, there should continuously be, every leader needs to take email dialogue, email communication, 1 0 1 at least once a year to remind them.

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[00:13:20] Don't put this in an email. 

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[00:13:23] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Legal friends love those trainings. Oh. 

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[00:13:27] Besty Cerulo - Host: But you know, with all the work that you've done. Tell me. What do you recommend, what not to do in times of high stress? 

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[00:13:37] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Hmm. Uh, the, the email piece that we just talked about is, is high priority for me. Um, and, and I think it's not just email, it, it's, it's being mindful of, of.

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[00:13:47] You know, those who are around you, even in a physical space, you know, emotions are part of who we are. And one of the things I talk about in, in some our training programs, there's a, um, a book called, um, switch by Chip and Dan Heath, the Heath Brothers, and it's a great [00:14:00] book. I've actually, uh, I just helped edit Dan Zs book, which I was very excited about.

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[00:14:03] Wonderful. 

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[00:14:04] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Um, but yeah, it's really cool. So, but, um, one of the things they talk about, and they, they actually borrow this from a, a, an NY. YU professor, but it's a concept called the elephant and the rider. And basically all humans are, are that image, you know, the, the rider sitting on top of an elephant. But the rider's represented as the rational side of us, the logical side where the elephant is representing the emotional side of us.

[00:14:25] Now, the, the difference between those two entities is absolutely on purpose because at the end of the day, if that rider pulls the reins with that elephant and says, go, right, where does that elephant go? What do you think? Rider said it should go right, but sometimes it goes left if it wants to. Exactly.

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[00:14:44] 'cause that elephant's pretty darn big. Right. So, and that's how us humans are our emotions. If we let our emotions, uh, if we want them to go one way, they will. But if they decide they want to go in a whole other direction, as my, um, my, my Disney work wife at the time, years ago, still a great friend, she said, talked about the concept of getting [00:15:00] emotionally hijacked and, and that happens to us.

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[00:15:02] And so I think, you know, that, that. One, you know, we talked about the email piece, but two, I think it's, it's getting back to what I shared about you, Betsy, is, you know, having that, that awareness and, you know, emotional intelligence is a, a massive thing that I feel is very underrepresented in the leadership space.

[00:15:18] Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of folks don't think about, you know, what is their own emotional intelligence when it comes to themselves, and how do they regulate that? What about the emotional intelligence of your, the rest of your team, having that social understanding on what's happening, what's being said, what's not being said.

[00:15:32] And I think if you're a leader who. Maybe doesn't have that, uh, highest level of emotional intelligence. Um, there's an area of opportunity we used to say at Disney, and I think that's, that's really where people should start focusing. Where's your awareness? And if so, what can you do to start getting that, that awareness where you need it to be?

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[00:15:48] Besty Cerulo - Host: Mm-hmm. And you know, I, I noticed too, when I feel really stressed out, I will get up from my desk, I will take a stroll, come back, [00:16:00] and then. Regroup again, and I think the pause button is so valuable for anyone, even if we're with our spouses and we are in a disagreement, you step back, take a breath, pause, and then come back to the conversation whether you renegotiate a different time or, or you can get right back into the moment.

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[00:16:24] You have to step back in high stress. 

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[00:16:26] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yes. Yes you do. You really do. 

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[00:16:28] Besty Cerulo - Host: So tell me, I'm gonna give you, I wanna give you some more time with Top Dog. Okay. Especially in these times right now and especially within our community. What are you seeing and how are you advising us? 

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[00:16:47] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Uh, yeah, it's, it's been a really, as I'm sure many folks listening and, and, and working can know it, it's been a very interesting time, um, since even before, um, the turn of the year.

[00:16:58] So with my business and like I [00:17:00] said, 17 years old and, and, and we have a, a handful of clients. I mean, most of our clients are Fortune five, hundreds, large non-for-profits, mainly in North America, but. But beyond, and we have various depths of relationships. We have some of our client partners, uh, such as a couple of our big pharma and things.

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[00:17:15] We've been doing all their leadership training for, you know, 16, 17 years. Other folks, I'll, I'll come in and do keynotes and stuff and, and so what I'm seeing is, is a variety of. Changes depending on the four areas of focus for the business. You know, the, uh, the inclusive leadership piece will start there is really struggling.

[00:17:31] Um, you know, IE it's either clients have just said, Nope, we can't do this. Uh, I had one just the other day say, we really want to, however, we have a lot of federal contracts and we're concerned, so we're going to just. Pause that program indefinitely. Um, others like our L-G-B-T-Q Leadership Program, those are usually funded through, um, employee resource groups, which are of course get their money from their diversity equity inclusion departments.

[00:17:55] And so those have either been gone or thrown away. Um, we are seeing an uptick in the resilient [00:18:00] leadership. Shockingly so. Yep. Um, and then one of our, uh, one of our biggest clients for the Essential Leadership Program, you know, our leadership 1 0 1 stuff, happens to be one of the, um, public broadcasting entities whose funding is, is on the mark.

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[00:18:14] And they've come back and said, yeah, we still wanna do this. We don't know if our budget's gonna be there. So it's like, oh man. And then, you know, throw on top of this, you know, like I said, I do a lot of keynotes and things and, um, I, in one week, four, uh, potential keynotes. All came back and said, we would love to have you.

[00:18:31] However, we're in Canada and you're American. Right. And we can't, we can't spend money on you right now. I'm like, dang, GoIT. I mean, I understand that. Yeah. But it's just been this weird, perfect storm. And so, so for my little business, it's been, it's been interesting. Um, and, and also, you know, it's not just me seeing a lot of these things.

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[00:18:47] And I think having conversations with, uh, other folks who are e either touched deeply or, or, or just getting hit by some of this, it, it is going back to some of those concepts of resiliency and. Saying, okay. [00:19:00] So, um, glass half full. I'm not being a, a, you know, a, um, rose colored glasses kind of, uh, business owner, sometimes rose colored glasses.

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[00:19:08] I, um, but really sitting, okay, so I hate the term pivot now, ever since COVID. Yes. But that's kind of where, where we're at, you know, and, and my doctor's actually in instructional technology distance education, so I've been zooming before Zoom was a. Thing even well before COVID, so now it's okay. So maybe where do we lean in something like that, which is not, I mean, it's still being authentic with, with the work that we do, but maybe it's focusing on some of those areas like resiliency or like, uh, virtual presentation skills, which is, you know, what we're, we're also.

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[00:19:36] Moving into it, which really falls under the essential leadership piece. Everyone needs that. But really leveraging into those areas that, um, have broader appeal, can have impact and value, but maybe aren't as sensitive right now without, without never throwing that away. Of course, still focusing on all the, the free leadership stuff that we do for our career community and beyond.

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[00:19:56] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:19:57] Besty Cerulo - Host: What I find interesting, the [00:20:00] way I guess society now has been viewing the word inclusive. And I look at the inclusive leadership. So what about the people that are already in leadership that don't fall in certain categories? Correct. So everybody needs a boost of not just, not energy, but wisdom.

[00:20:28] Yeah. 

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[00:20:29] Besty Cerulo - Host: So. It's still, it's still needed, and I just think that people need to reframe, looking at that word, leadership encompasses so many things. 

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[00:20:40] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:20:42] Besty Cerulo - Host: It, it's, it should not be a negative. Word now. And that's what makes me sad about it. 

[00:20:49] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. And, and, and I, that's where I get frustrated. I mean, I've been teaching inclusive leadership my entire career basically, and it's never been like, oh my gosh, you have to do all these things and if you're this type of demographic, you should feel [00:21:00] bad about what history did that?

[00:21:01] I've never done that. I do know that there have been some DEI practitioners. Sadly who have, and so, um, but I've always started the conversation first, defining what diversity really is. And, and there's a, an awesome model. Um, I've been using, I don't know if you know this one, Betsy or not, the, the five layers of diversity.

[00:21:19] And it's um, by two women, garden, Schwartz and Row. They were kind of pioneers in the DEI space. You back. When, you know, early SHRM Days, society of Human Resource Management, and they came up with an idea like how do you organize the concept of diversity? And so they created these five layers, and I'll just very briefly share those.

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[00:21:34] The, the first is they say, you all humans are five layers. At the core of who we are is our personality. Every human who's listening, who's watching, there will never be another Betsy. There'll never be another Steve. Even if we had twins. We are unique, and that's because of our personality, so that automatically makes us diverse.

[00:21:50] Then you have the next layer out, which they call internal dimensions, and these are things that. For the most part, don't change over your, the course of your lifetime. Uh, gender, uh, gender identity, race, ethnicity, [00:22:00] sexual orientation, physical ability, age. Now, you know, obviously age changes each year, but for the most part, these are things that don't change.

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[00:22:07] But sadly, I. For better or for worse, I guess I should say. This is the only place that a lot of people go when they think of diversity and it, and it, it's a yes and kind of mentality. 'cause the next layer out is what Garden, Schwartz and Row called the external dimensions. Now these are things that it truly impact how we look at the world, but they can change very frequently.

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[00:22:26] You know, things like my income, my personal habits, my religion, uh, my physical appearance, my recreational habits. Background work, uh, parental status, marital status, you know, these are all different things. So I usually stop here and we, we always bring this up in every training class we do, and we say, you know, who hears a parent?

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[00:22:44] And, you know, people, various people will lay, said, you look at the world a little differently than people who are not parents. It's not better for words, it's just different. Right. Right. Like, I'm not a human parent in this life. I'm a canine parent, so I have a different perspective than my, my friends who have human kids.

[00:22:58] I get it. You know, it's just the way [00:23:00] you look at the world that makes us each unique and that's. Also diverse. Diverse, yeah, absolutely. And then the next layer you're out is, is organizational dimensions in relationship to the group that you're a part of. So if you say in the workplace, at your functional level, um, you know, the division, uh, your seniority, if you're in a union.

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[00:23:16] I started adding legacy organizations 'cause I work with a lot of mergers and acquisitions and you're like, oh, you're former blah, blah, blah company. Like, you know, you hear that a lot. Um, you know, and so these are also different ways you look at the world. Oh, I'm in sales, I'm looking at it through this lens.

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[00:23:28] Ah, I'm in accounting. I'm over here, I'm on the front line, whatever. And then lastly, added. Um, country of operation. So, so, and this is a fairly, not, fairly new, but newer, uh, than the other four. And they said, you know what? We do have to acknowledge that wherever you sit in the world and you're operating out of does have influence on how you're looking at the world, such as the political systems, the values, business etiquette, all these different pieces and parts do contribute to how you engage and look at the world.

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[00:23:55] And I, I often use, um, I have a lot of German national clients. You know, I, we work with [00:24:00] North America. I don't know how that happened. I don't speak German, but. It is what it is, but you do see how that country of operation does permeate, uh, beyond the individual personality. Like for something like timeliness, you know, not stereotyping, but as a, as a culture.

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[00:24:13] Germans think of, of timeliness in one way versus some other cultures. I. Not better, not worse. It just is and you see that come into fruition. So I, I just love this model because I really think it takes the concept of what diversity is and really blows it out to be better and more inclusive, ironically enough.

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[00:24:30] And I think that's what frustrates me when, as, as you said, is, you know, when people talk about diversity, I'm like, you are so going just to one dimension. Right? And barely even that. 

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[00:24:38] Besty Cerulo - Host: Right. You know, even when we have some of the, some of the organizations we know from N-G-L-C-C, the large corporations, they have to manage all of their offices differently because of where they're placed in the us.

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[00:24:52] So climate is even, yeah. Has diversity. You know, you're gonna handle things. Someone who [00:25:00] say near Alaska, different than maybe someone who's in Florida. 

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[00:25:03] Yep. 

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[00:25:04] Besty Cerulo - Host: And these seem like. Common sense ways to look at it. And what I wish is that there was more information. I mean, I know there's a lot, but there's ways to place this type of information.

[00:25:21] Mm-hmm. With the people that are looking at all the conspiracy theories or whatever, whatever news outlet to really understand. Okay. This is coming up a lot in political conversations. Let's talk about what diversity really means. 

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[00:25:34] Yeah. 

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[00:25:35] Besty Cerulo - Host: Because my feeling is if you, you send something like that out and maybe if you've changed a handful of, a handful of people's, uh, opinion of what diversity is, then you've started to, to break that mold.

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[00:25:50] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I've, I've been going to the conversation where, you know, I say, have you seen the changing room in, uh, the, the baby changing station in [00:26:00] men's bathrooms? They're like, yeah. I'm like, that's diversity. Yeah. What, like, have you seen a braille menu? That's diversity. Mm-hmm. That's inclusiveness.

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[00:26:07] Right? And it gets people thinking beyond the, you know, the, the, the hot button, hot titles that are out in the media and it's like, it's a yes. And, you know, and, and when I bring up that, that whole, um, five leaders of diversity model, because I even talk about, um, handedness. You know, I, I know a lot of left-handed, I'm, I'm right-handed, but 12% of the global population ish is, is left-handed.

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[00:26:29] You know, I know my left-handed friends back in elementary school really looked at world differently 'cause they only had like two left-handed deaths and like that all the left-hand kids were fighting for 'em, or, or there was like two pairs of left-handed scissors and it's like you, that's a level of diversity.

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[00:26:43] Having enough. So that people all are accommodated for, it's not right. It's just like being a kind human. I know. But we've suddenly made it, you know, this big political drama and which slowly impacts a lot of businesses, not just mine. 

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[00:26:54] Besty Cerulo - Host: Yeah. Uh, exactly. And, and I think with more information out there, like [00:27:00] you're sharing it, it has, it gives the opportunity for there to be some change in thinking.

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[00:27:05] Yeah. 

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[00:27:06] Besty Cerulo - Host: So, you know, there, there are times that leaders are faced with fighting the good fight. Over again. What are your thoughts on that? 

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[00:27:16] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: I, I love that you've said that. It's, it's funny when I was writing my last book, pride Leadership and I got to the, the, um, chapter on culture and shaping workplace culture, specifically how that looks.

[00:27:27] That was, there's two parts of that conversation in that chapter as well as in my latest book, your career, career and, and all of our stuff because you, you, it's a personal thing. You know, you have to decide, um, there's two opportunities. You go out and you say, let's, let's talk about you're in a workplace, whether you, you, you, you're owning the workplace or you're part of a a, an organization and you wanna see is it being as inclusive as you'd like it to be?

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[00:27:48] Maybe that's because they've pulled back from all the political rhetoric. Um, whatever the reason. So, you know, you first, you do your. Your research, you know, is, is it as, um, exclusion, [00:28:00] exclusionary, exclusionary as you expect it to or not. And so you, you kind of gather the data and see is it really yes or no?

[00:28:06] And then the second step is you decide, do you wanna put up the fight or do you wanna pick up your toys and find someone, another organization that's going to appreciate your authenticity? Uh, differently. And, and I think that's the conversation a lot of folks are having. You know, it's very public. Some of these organizations, these big companies who used to be in our corner or were perceived to be in our corner, who now, uh, don't, are perceived to not be.

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[00:28:28] But I think our first spot is are they really? You know, I, I know a lot of my client partners who said, Steve, we're still gonna do what we do with you, but we just can't call it what we were calling it. Just to kind of, and, and I'm like, you know what? I think that's a little, little lack of courage, right?

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[00:28:42] But I also understand that, you know, you have a billion dollar contact with the federal government and you don't want to bring a, you know, target onto your face, no pun intended. And so I, I, I kind of can start to see that I don't feel good about it, but I also understand what's called context and, and, and where we're at in the world.

[00:28:58] And, you know, like one of my, my client [00:29:00] partners, um, well actually one of my, my coachees with a big, big tech company, and I asked him, I said, you know, what's gonna happen next month in June, in Pride month? Is your company going to. Put the rainbow on your logo like you do every year. And he's like, you know what?

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[00:29:13] I don't think we are, but we still are doing all these internal programming events for Pride and we may not be at the next Pride Parade, throwing out swag, but they're still supporting us as best we can in creating that sense of belonging, knowing that there's this context and, and, and, you know, situation, but also communicating that to all of our internal stakeholders.

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[00:29:31] They said, you know what? I think right now I could be okay with that. Um. Now talk to me in like three years from now if that's the norm. Mm, maybe not. Then that seems like we're sliding back too far. 

[00:29:40] Besty Cerulo - Host: Yeah, agreed. And, and I know some of the conversations we're having in the Maryland LGBT Chamber and the foundation is where we would, where we would create, have created certain programs.

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[00:29:53] Now we're looking, well, what is drying up? It's a lot of funding and grants. 

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[00:29:58] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:29:58] Besty Cerulo - Host: So. [00:30:00] We have to start shifting then maybe part of our purpose now, there needs to be more emphasis on how can we open up those, you know, those lines of financing and giving people an a, a place to come to. There are new organizations, not a lot of money, but still there's one other place, a new place where they can come to start looking at what could be possible.

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[00:30:24] Can you give me anything? So, so we're in that mode right now of rethinking how do we wanna roll out some different programs that will support the community so people are not. And so they don't go without. 

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[00:30:39] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think, you know, uh, you know, as I look at some of, um, the folks who I interact with who's, who have, you know, quote unquote dissolved our diversity equity inclusion department, wink, you know, they've just split them.

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[00:30:52] Now. Part of it is in legal, part of it's under HR or learning development or somewhere else, but the work is still getting done. And I was like, okay, if, [00:31:00] if that's what we need to do in the interim. Okay. Um, you know, we, if we have to make that pivot, but, um, you know, I, I think as long as in the spirit we're, we're not just, um, throwing it away to be like, oh, oh, you don't like this.

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[00:31:12] Okay, now we'll focus over here. Well, that's a, that's a really big sign of, of, of, um, performative allyship in the past. And now we know and, and we will remember that going forward. Yeah. 

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[00:31:21] Besty Cerulo - Host: Every community has gotten smarter because we've had to fight many fights for decades. So I kind of look at it that, okay, so now I'm gonna look at it differently from an elder perspective than, than in my earlier years in the community.

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[00:31:38] And the pendulum always swings. 

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[00:31:40] Yeah. 

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[00:31:41] Besty Cerulo - Host: We just have to know that as the pendulum is swinging, we're, we're moving towards a lot more, moving into more chaos. 

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[00:31:49] Intro: Mm-hmm. 

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[00:31:49] Besty Cerulo - Host: And it's how we respond to the chaos. Yeah. That allows us to make the difference, the good difference. Yeah. And 

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[00:31:55] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: you just gave me the vision of Miley Cyrus on her wrecking ball, and we're just [00:32:00] riding along.

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[00:32:01] Besty Cerulo - Host: That's right. That's right. Because those of us who have been out here for a long time, you can't silence us. You can't, you can't stop us. It's just we're, we've just gotten more creative 

[00:32:14] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: and that bell has been wrong. I mean, you know, and what what gives me, um, hope is all the data that that. You know, there's all the rhetoric about like, oh, people hate diversity.

[00:32:24] But there's actually some really amazing studies that happened within the last year, uh, looking at, um, what people, uh, think, you know, the, the first one I thought was really fascinating and, and actually this one's even outdated 'cause it just came out in January. Gallup, um, you know, asked how many, how many queer Americans are there?

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[00:32:40] And last year it was 7.6%. Now it's like 9.2 or 9.3 or something like that. Self-reported as of 2025. So, you know, there's a, the, the. Amount of, of LGBTQ plus, uh, identifying people. I mean, when they first started asking in 2012, it was people identified 3.5%. It's not like there's a lot of, lot of [00:33:00] gay folks happening.

[00:33:00] It's like we're become more comfortable coming out. Right. But the, the data I absolutely love the best is looking at, um, when you ask Gen Z. What percent do you identify as LGBTQ plus? And it bumped up to 28% according. Interesting. And then what's even cooler about them, uh, is in five short years, not even five years, they'll be 30% of the workforce, uh, according to the data.

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[00:33:26] And then 83% of Gen Zs say, you know what? Whatever company I work for, they better be focusing on de and I. And, and that's not changing. And so if you're. A company out there who's trying to scramble, um, and do like shortsightedness to appease a a minor demographic that's very vocal. Um, you're really gonna cut off your nose, spite your face when in five short years a 30 year workforce is looking for you to be doing DEI like items or efforts, and they're gonna be like, Ooh, I'm not coming to you.

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[00:33:57] That's right. And now you just lost a third of the, the workforce [00:34:00] because of what you do and what you value. 

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[00:34:01] Besty Cerulo - Host: That's right. The, you know, this is a, this is a, a perfect time where. The majority knows what to do. 

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[00:34:08] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:34:09] Besty Cerulo - Host: We really, we, we really do. And we have to. If you go, you know, you go back to. You're, um, the flag.

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[00:34:17] Mm-hmm. 

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[00:34:17] Besty Cerulo - Host: We have to have the courage and sometimes the courage is hearing something that we know doesn't sit right. Yeah. You don't have to have a barroom brawl over it, but you can interrupt the conversation and just say, that makes me feel uncomfortable. 'cause one of the ways that we have coached our contractors across the country, if something comes up, is you can say that what you've said.

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[00:34:42] Makes me uncomfortable and I don't wanna participate in the conversation. So you're not necess, you're not telling that person they're wrong, but you're, you're, you're kind of gracefully exiting from it. 

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[00:34:54] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Yeah. I, I love that you said it. I just put this graphic out on some stuff I read and it's, it's titled, if you're not Seeing it, it's titled, [00:35:00] how Do I Have Conversations with People Who Disagree With You?

[00:35:02] And it's just those, those rebuttals or conversation starters and, and some, I think ev all of us who've been in this fight for a while Yeah. Um, already knew like, you know, well, what shaped your perspective to get there or something to that effect. You know, that's a really interesting, uh, vantage point.

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[00:35:17] What is some information that personally got you to look at it that way, or how does that personally impact you? And then you start to, to one, pull off the people who are just parroting soundbites. Versus this is how they really think. And then you're actually engaging in a thoughtful conversation versus the, oh my gosh, just, just set the black up, you know, and blank up and you know, uh, and you don't look like you don't agree with how I'm agreeing with things.

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[00:35:40] And they're like, no, let's, let's have that conversation in a respectful way to really start to parse out who, who is maybe someone we can have a conversation with versus those who are just really into certain television stations and radio shows, and they just pair it what they hear. 

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[00:35:54] Besty Cerulo - Host: What's really valuable here is that you're teaching people to ask questions and a lot of [00:36:00] times that's the safest place to be if you ask questions.

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[00:36:02] Now, don't ask the question with an edge. Exactly. You know, be neutral. Ask the question and, and it's in receiving the answers allows you, how should I continue the conversation? 

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[00:36:16] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Exactly. Exactly. You know, so you 

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[00:36:17] Besty Cerulo - Host: can stay in that kinder space that's. Not as chaotic. 

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[00:36:24] Yes, 

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[00:36:24] Besty Cerulo - Host: perhaps so. Well, Steve, this conversation has been so informative, valuable.

[00:36:32] It, it gives me hope. So what I wanna ask you in closing, what would you like to share with our leaders about what you do? And just to kind of bring it all together. And, 

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[00:36:45] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: and so if, if you find, uh, you or your organization is looking for, uh, assistance in helping with that leadership 1 0 1 kind of things that inclusive or welcoming or insert whatever's the right way, belonging, leadership, um, if you are part of the LGBTQ plus community, reach out to me.

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[00:36:59] We do a [00:37:00] lot of good free and also, um, for pay programming on helping amp up your leadership skills, including, uh, my last two books might be of value and also, um, resiliency leadership, I mean, or being resilient in times of change. That is something I think we all can use. And so, uh. Feel free to reach out.

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[00:37:15] I'm sure it's gonna be in the show notes, but how we can support you in those four areas, uh, really, really, really wanna help, uh, get us all through this, this particular weird and wonderful time that we, we are in. 

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[00:37:25] Besty Cerulo - Host: Well, real quickly, for those that are listening, how can people 

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[00:37:29] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: reach out to you directly?

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[00:37:30] Probably the easiest thing is to go to Top Dog, l.biz, BIZ. You can find out information about myself, my team, uh, the training classes we offer, the freebies that are out there, all the blog stuff that we're doing, and, um, top Dog luring dot. Biz is probably the best way. 

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[00:37:45] Besty Cerulo - Host: Wonderful. Well, Steve, thank you so much for today.

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[00:37:48] As always, I appreciate your heartfelt approach. I appreciate that you are such a warrior for every community that you touch, and I'm just thankful that our paths have [00:38:00] crossed. 

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[00:38:00] Dr. Steve Yacovelli: Thank you, Betsy, and thank you for creating this space. I think it's super important now, more than ever. 

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[00:38:04] Besty Cerulo - Host: Absolutely. My pleasure.

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[00:38:06] Well, everyone, thank you so much for your time today. Make sure you reach out to Steve and learn more about what he does and whatever you're doing out there, just make sure you make a difference and do it with kindness. 

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[00:38:19] Outro: Thanks for listening to Room at the Table. If you've enjoyed this episode, follow us on your favorite listening platform.

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[00:38:25] And share this episode with a colleague or two or three for resources to help you lead with purpose and build more equitable workplaces. Visit room at the table podcast com.