Alfredo Santiago, LCSW-C, is a licensed certified social worker at Chase Brexton Health Services and founder of Peace and Strength Counseling, LLC, providing compassionate care to LGBTQ, POC, Latinx immigrants, refugees, at-risk youth, and those navigating grief. With experience at Baltimore City Department of Social Services, Veterans Administration Hospital, and Sinai Hospital, Alfredo brings a trauma-informed, strength-based approach to supporting marginalized communities. He holds a Master’s in Social Work from the University of Maryland, an M.A. from Wesley Theological Seminary, volunteers with several social justice organizations, and is a proud parent to Marvin and Chuck the boxer dog.

​

Alfredo Santiago LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alfredo-santiago-3b09513/

About ALfredo Santiago: https://chasebrexton.org/alfredo-santiago

About ALfredo Santiago: https://leafedu.org/alfredo-santiago/

Episode Transcript – The Daily Losses We Face

[00:00:00] Betsy Cerulo: Welcome to Room at the Table, an opportunity for you to join me, Betsy Cerulo and my guests for conversations about creating equitable and inclusive workplaces where leaders rise above mediocrity and our teams thrive. Pull up a chair. There's always room at the table. Welcome to another Meaningful Conversation on Room at the table.

​

[00:00:26] I am Betsy Cerulo, your host, and welcome to my guest today, Alfredo Santiago, a behavioral health expert with Chase Brexton Healthcare located in Maryland. Today, we are talking about grief and the many forms it shows up in. So pull up a chair, enjoy your favorite beverage, and let's get started. Welcome, Alfredo.  Thank you so much for being here today. How are you? 

​

[00:00:52] Alfredo Santiago: Um, fine. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. I'm really excited about being here today. 

​

[00:00:55] Betsy Cerulo: Great. And I know you have so much wisdom to share on this topic, so [00:01:00] we're gonna jump right in. So, you know, when it comes to grief, most people think it's usually about death of a loved one.  So from your opinion, what are you seeing? What forms of grief are you encountering now with your cust, with your patients? 

​

[00:01:17] Alfredo Santiago: Well. Generally speaking, when we think of grief, we think about death and loss, right? Mm-hmm. A loss of a loved one. But lately we've been seeing grief around losing employment, um, losing benefits, the fear of losing benefits. So sometimes grief is not the loss already happened. It's as you're walking through it and preparing for it, there's an aspect of loss. So a lot of fear. 

​

[00:01:39] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. 

​

[00:01:40] Alfredo Santiago: And I hear the word, um, I'm scared. Yes. Um, sad, angry, anxious. So that seems to be the, um, the culture lately in my session since January, uh, 2025. 

​

[00:01:54] Betsy Cerulo: And I, you know, I see that so, so much with what we do on our workforce because there are times, sadly, since January, we've had to reduce the workforce on some of our contracts. And it is so hard to call someone who's done so well and say, this has nothing to do with your performance. So, you know, fortunately we have a wonderful team of very caring, compassionate, and loving, uh, recruiters that they know how to, how to field it. And, um. But it is, it is a sad time right now. And of course when things are like this, it does make us more resilient. Uh, one of the things I have noticed, so when it comes to death of a loved one, and I, you know, and I'll speak for myself some, some of the grief that I've encountered and that people in my generation are encountering, it's, it's. It's the loss of what was, you know, the nostalgia. We long for what we had when those people were still in our lives. And so there's, uh, uh, there's a lot of reflection on that nostalgia. And sometimes it evokes sadness and sometimes it, it, it breeds, you know, a smile of gratitude for that good times. Do you see that as well sometimes? 

​

[00:03:17] Alfredo Santiago: I'm glad you're mentioning that because I think a lot of times I do hear that theme by the way. Mm-hmm. Um, with my folks who are just, um, remembering places, um, where, where they come from and the loss of that, um, place of moving and migrating and just moving from even in, within the United States, moving from region to region, but also, um, losing your identity. Like, um, my spouse died, so my identity was connected to my spouse or my loved one, my partner, or I lost my job. Yes. And my identity was that I was the man manager of this department. Um, I supervised X amount of people, so losing identity, um, for some people caused them a lot of grief. Um. It is very humbling for some people right now, I'm sure, who are looking for work, knowing that there's so many people besides them actively looking in the workplace for new, um, new employment and having to sit down again and prepare their, um, rearrange their resumes, uh, practice for their resume, um, their, their interview conversation and like. Maybe four months ago, five months ago, they were in a position that they would hire people and interview people. So the roles change. So you lose your identity. Once you lose your, your role. Um, you, you experience grief. Once you lose your, your role and your identity, you're attached to, again, the level and you're attached to. Um. So we see a lot of grief happening right now, um, in offices and outside offices. Most of the time I think the grief is happening in the community, in people's homes, and we're not even aware of it. 

​

[00:04:49] Betsy Cerulo: Right. Right. And I think too, some of the grieving is also loss of one's voice because there have been, and there continued to be many aspects where, uh. People's voices are being squelched and they're not being heard. And that is a, that is another level of grief that I have encountered. And, you know, I'll say it in terms of also for myself, because we all have to be really mindful of what we put out there and what we say. And it's, it's, it's different from this time last year.

​

[00:05:27] Alfredo Santiago: Agreed. 

​

[00:05:29] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. What type of emotions are showing up in the landscape, you know, as a result of the landscape of our, that our country is rapidly changing? What are you seeing? 

​

[00:05:42] Alfredo Santiago: Again, I'm Repeat the emotion, the strong emotion of fear of the unknown. Um, anxiety, uh, dysregulation, people's emotions like irritable, where they normally have a nice. The calm demeanor, they might be irritable and have short tempered, um, withdrawn. Yes. You know, it's more like, be more behavior than emotion, but how that, that plays out, which is not emotions, but also behavior. Um, people are isolating. 

​

[00:06:09] Betsy Cerulo: Yes.

[00:06:10] Alfredo Santiago: I wanna figure out what's my plan, my survival plan, my next plan. Um, I already had a plan, but now it's, you know, has, has to shift. And some people weren't writing and prepared to do so. No. So that, um, that definitely. Um, evokes a lot of anxiety and people in fear and uncertainty. 

​

[00:06:27] Betsy Cerulo: You know, I've, I've also encountered denial, uh, where I will hear a, a common phrase, everything's fine. And you know what, being an optimistic through tough times is really important, but saying everything's fine with no plan. It's not fine. It's not fine. And I, and, and my hope is for as. For all of us as, as we are going through changes that, you know, there's this shock when there's a loss, whatever that loss is, and you know, to, to sit down and have the self-reflection, whether you're doing it with a professional or on your own, and really look at what if, you know, if this happens, what direction can I go and who can I ask for help.

​

[00:07:16] Alfredo Santiago: Well, you know, denial is a defense mechanism, right? It is. So we just need to protect ourselves. Um, sometimes we don't want to reveal our emotions and our thoughts to others. Sometimes we don't want them even to, um, entertain our own thoughts and emotions, right? So if we don't talk about it, it's not happening. We're keeping it at bay. I gave the example to a friend of mine the other day about a volcano that, you know, we see the volcano and it's, it's a awesome, you know, thing to, to marvel at. But there's, there is. Things happening that we don't see within the amount of dirt, you know, it's, yeah. How many feet high, how many miles high, um, things are happening. Not just the eruption, I think the eruption we also also pay attention to, but there is, um, unrest. Um, things are moving in different places and spaces. It's getting hot. Yes. Right. Um, and so a lot of times people are not necessarily sharing what they're thinking and feeling and at times they want to, the denial helps them to keep it covered. But like anything that after a while, you know, you keep covered or compressed, it will erupt. Yes. And you, and you know, as a, as a descriptor. And it can play out with, uh, mental instability. It can play out in a aggression towards your loved ones, strangers. Yeah. So the now is not healthy. Um, although it, it has, it's sometime it's in the moment. Um, it could be helpful in a moment, right. That I need to like regularly before I can start. Disclosing how I'm feeling, 'cause maybe I need to figure out what I'm thinking and feeling. But in the long term it can do more harm than good. 

​

[00:08:50] Betsy Cerulo: Absolutely. And you know, I know even from my own experiences, I can get short sometimes with my wife at the end of the workday and I've, fortunately she and I have done and continue to do a lot of inner work so I can, I catch myself and I'll say. I'm sorry, that has had, had nothing to do with you. And you know, she'll laugh and she'll say, I know. Can you, can you catch yourself before you come downstairs? I'm, uh, yes. I'm, so, I'm doing, I'm doing much better about that. You know, another form of grief that I see that gets swept under the rug sometimes is, uh, loss of pregnancy and sadly, you know, we've all know people who have had women who have had miscarriages, and we tend to forget about the spouse too is also undergoing a loss. And I, and sometimes I think there's this perception and it could just be people are just and I don't like the word ignorant, but they don't understand the long-term impact. But when a woman loses, uh, has a miscarriage, it's not as simple as, okay, well the next week you bounce right back to it and every, and everything's fine. There is such a deep loss that goes on for the woman and her family that experiences that loss, and I wish. That there was more conversation out there for people to recognize the extreme and profound loss when a woman has a miscarriage.

​

[00:10:41] Alfredo Santiago: You know, I'm glad you mentioning that because this reminds me of like postpartum depression. People speak on that, right? Yes. And it's still, um, it's hard to admit, but there's also, um, perinatal depression. When people are pregnant in their pregnancy, they can already start developing pregnancies. Um, you know, you, you're, uh changes that happen in your body, the changes that are happening in the relationships as, as you prepare right to welcome a child or children, um, depending on how your pregnancy looks like, but when there's a loss, when you have, again, an idea that you lose create with your partner. If you're with, if your partner or if you're a single parent, you have an in your mind a narrative about how that's gonna play out, and all of a sudden the loss disrupts that. Done. It's a shift. And some of us are not ready for that shift because that's not what the expectation is. So, um, I was actually, uh, at a mental health, health fair this weekend and one of the women, just like, she, she's like a lot of awareness. She was like, how about the partners? She was speaking specifically about the men, but you know, some women, our partner, other women, um, and so yeah, like we have to forget, remember that they're attached to somebody else.

​

[00:11:46] Betsy Cerulo: Yes. 

​

[00:11:47] Alfredo Santiago: And not just a spouse or a loved one. It could even family members, other siblings that were looking forward to having, you know, a younger brother or sister. So, um, that needs to be taken, given attention to and the whole thing that she's gonna be okay. They're gonna be okay. That approach is never. Supportive. Yes. It's never really truly showing compassion. It's not really showing up because like they'll fix themselves, uh, and with time, but it needs attention. Absolutely. It needs to say, how are you feeling? And like really sit down to, to listen to the answer versus just asking the question like, how are you today? But just ask, asking it as if it's just a regular salutation, like good morning, hello, you know, even present for the person.

​

[00:12:31] Betsy Cerulo: Exactly. And you know, in the workplace there are absolutely, there are times when being absorbed in your work is part of the healing, you know, to, to have some kind of other distraction.  Mm-hmm. But what I have seen and what I hear in a workplace, people don't know. Whether, whatever the loss is, so I'll, I'll, you know, take for instance, when someone passes away, people don't know how to respond to it In a workplace, you don't have to have a long and drawn out. Um, I can just say from my own experiences, when I had some sudden losses in my family over the years, I had customers, if I went out to, to a meeting or to lunch, just.

said, how are you? You know, just, just having someone ask the question or you know, I'm really sorry for your loss versus ignoring it and just keep going, like, everything's okay. It's really. It's really the, the other person's discomfort in addressing it. And again, you don't have to have a long and drawn out conversation, but being the person who's had the loss, when someone just says, I'm so sorry for your loss, and how are you, I can't tell you the difference that made for me that, you know, like that ten second, uh, come a statement made such a used difference in my own healing.

​

[00:14:03] Alfredo Santiago: It is that inter um, the interaction, that compassionate moment, right? Yes. Like you said, this didn't even have to be a long, drawn on conversation. The fact that they acknowledged my loss. Um, some people want to get words of comfort, so, and they may be good at that. Some people are so eloquent of giving words of comfort and some people, for some people that might be awkward.

​

[00:14:20] Betsy Cerulo: Yes. 

​

[00:14:21] Alfredo Santiago: But still just acknowledging, uh, you know, um, I'm thinking of you and how are you doing is a proper, appropriate question. Yeah. I think in our culture with I'm setting. Yes. Um, it's a wonderful thing, but sometimes our boundaries are too tight that we forget to be our genuine self to say, you know, that person experienced a loss. We have all experienced a loss mostly in this, but especially if you live, you know, past 50, um, you've definitely experienced loss. So just to, to show the compassion, the empathy, um, again, just like you just said, in just a moment of compassion, people receive that. It's part of the healing bond that we all need, and that's why connecting with others is so important. We can't, um. Have a healthy grief process. If we isolate, it definitely takes others around you too. It's just to be there present for you. Absolutely. And work at home in your faith community and whatever your tribe is. 

​

[00:15:13] Betsy Cerulo: Well, and you know, and there's the other and the other part of that, especially in the workplace, you may have an individual that's really having such a hard time with coping with it, and the emotions are right there all the time. So. There has to be a balance to that. Yes. How would you advise someone if you see that someone on your team or someone in the workplace just has continuous outpour of the grief during the workday? How do you advise people to to be with that in an appropriate way? 

​

[00:15:54] Alfredo Santiago: And that's, um, you know, again, it's about a, I know I put you on the spot. No, because at the scenarios, around the scenarios and every work culture is different. Like, do I get along with my coworker? Right. You know, uh, we colleagues and we're strictly business, or do we like, you know, have lunch together? It's, you know, different, different relationships giving in the workforce, you know, um, just again, being genuine, like, Hey, I noticed, um, I, your sadness. Hey, I see I, you're so quiet lately. Um, just let. Um, I'm here to offer you some support or, uh, so some of my coworkers, you know, we pay for our employment assistance program. Maybe you wanna, um, contact them and have a few sessions, like remind people that you're available or there's other, um, things in place.

[00:16:38] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah.

​

[00:16:38] Alfredo Santiago: That can support them. 

​

[00:16:40] Betsy Cerulo: And you know, the other thing too is. Uh, we companies will, regardless of the size, there's bereavement leave. Now sometimes you see bereavement leave three days a week, whichever. That doesn't mean that the grieving stops there. So from, as being a small business owner over the years when we've had that happen, we can't necessarily give people, um, indefinite periods of time to be outta the office. But what I do as a leader is, you know, I pay attention and I, and I watch for the cues for that person. And I have on several occasions, had a conversation with the individual and said, you know, why don't you just go home early today? It's okay. Just go home early today. Do do what you need and then, you know, let me know how you are tomorrow if you wanna come back tomorrow. So, you know, I, every situation is different and we have to be cognizant of that as leaders, that it's not a switch that flips, you know? And then, you know, the other, the other loss too that sometimes gets overlooked. Loss of a pet. I've certainly had a lot of that. And our pets are our family. 

​

[00:17:56] Alfredo Santiago: Yes. Um, you know, uh, I have had people see me for, um, loss of their, their pets, different pets, um, not just traditionally adults and cats, um, other, um, warm-blooded animals mouths. And, you know, it is, and you have to respect that and honor that. Yes. Um, the attachment is, um. You might have, they may have been there, um, since their birth. They may have been given to, um, their pet by a loved one to them as a gift, um, may during a difficult time that came to your life and gave you so much comfort. So there is space for that. Um, you know, I don't think we have. Bereaving for them from most places, but employers that are confession, they will pick up on that realize, oh my, this person, like if they have a picture of their, of their dog or a cat or other animal in their, in their office, it means a lot to them. Yeah. Um, and again, we're very 

​

[00:18:49] Betsy Cerulo: mindful of that. 

​

[00:18:50] Alfredo Santiago: Yeah.  Which is one, it sounds like you are, you know, so just again, paying attention that people grieve differently. And I just wanna just mention, um. The bereavement of three days, five days. Um, we're not robots. You don't? No. Okay. Now, I'm, uh, thank you. That's, that's all I needed. I'm back. I'm a hundred percent pre present. No one can be a hundred percent present after a loss of a loved one. Yeah. No one, 

​

[00:19:14] Betsy Cerulo: no. I can, I can remember after, uh, one of my brothers passed away suddenly and it was such a shock. I walked back, uh, into my office. We had services here in Maryland. We had services up in New Jersey for him. And I came back into the office. I remember I took a deep breath before I put my hand on the, uh, the doorknob, and I walked in and I, and I just leaned against the door and I, you know, I have such a wonderful staff and they just greeted me with hugs and, and that made all the difference in the world. Mm-hmm. You know, again, not every workplace is like, that doesn't mean that you go rushing up to somebody. You have to, you have to know. The, the scenario? No, like, but when someone walks in after their bereavement leave. I have certainly seen and hear where people kind of run the other way and it's not because they're mean, they just don't know what to do. 

​

[00:20:12] Alfredo Santiago: Yeah. Because we not, you know, there's nothing that, and in school they talk about grief.

I remember that ever happened while I was in, from my formative years to high school, even college. Um, because the work that I do, of course, I've had grief, um, and dying classes about what I'm just having conversations with people with just also acknowledging the diversity. A lot of times that we have in our agencies, in our community, like everybody, um, grieves differently. Some people, um, might have a ritual a year later after the person dies or they might bury them, um, or cremate them and then bury the remains and have a, or have a worship service or honoring them. Um. Six months out, you know? Right. And some people are like. Wait a minute. You didn't have closure yet. Like, no, it's, it's a process is what we do. Or they have to travel to a different country or different part of the United States. You know, it prolongs the grief process and the rituals. But they should be honored Absolutely. Because it means so much, you know, and-  

​

[00:21:07] Betsy Cerulo: different ethnicities have different ways that they grieve. Mm-hmm. You know, I've certainly seen, um, I'm from an Italian upbringing. You know, I have certainly seen people practically dive into the coffins over at different times. And, you know, uh, it was something that my siblings and I would laugh about when we were younger 'cause we would see the, um, the older relatives do that. And as we got older, we, we understood it. I haven't jumped in at this time, but we, we understand it more because as you get older sometimes the grief is, is so profound and, um, we don't make fun of it anymore. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll say that. 

​

[00:21:49] Alfredo Santiago: Yeah. And different, um, cultures are more emotion than other cultures. Um, so you just still honor that because. That's the way they express themselves. Um, I'm from New Jersey, by the way also, so, uh, and I was raised around a lot of Italian Americans. Um, I'm a Puerto, I'm Puerto Rican descent. And so for us, you know, um, after a person dies a month, a month later, people are prayed for their soul to go to heaven. Those to are Catholic and practice that. Yeah a year later, it's not just for Catholics. Um, a year later, sometimes people have, um. A service or that come together to honor the person's memory a year later after their death that their death anniversary. And just knowing when those dates come. Um, death dates, birth dates, um, holidays. 

​

[00:22:30] Betsy Cerulo: Yes. 

​

[00:22:31] Alfredo Santiago: A lot of times those emotions were erupt and this, and people have to also pay attention to that. The first, you say, the first Thanksgiving After my father died, I remembered, um, I would go up to New Jersey, um, to, for Thanksgiving weekends. And as soon as I got on Route 95, immediately I got route On Route 95, I started to cry and I was like, why am I crying? Um, not thinking about anything and just realizing my father would always call me. Where are you? Yes. On nine five, and I'd like this, why does he always ask me where I am? He knows I'm coming. I'm gonna arrive when I arrive. And it was because they always had a hot meal for me, waiting for me. They timed it perfectly, but it was the meal waiting for me and I knew two things that I would not receive that, um, phone call that sometimes I took for granted. And that, that he wouldn't be at the other end, um, of that drive to receive me. Right? So we can be triggered at any given times in moments that we least expect it to happen. 

​

[00:23:27] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I, I share that that's the way my mother was it was almost as though as soon as I crossed the Delaware Memorial Bridge, the phone rang so that the meal was hot. 

​

[00:23:37] Alfredo Santiago: PS you know, absolutely. They love, love GPS, you know? 

​

[00:23:40] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. And so now when I'm on business trips and I know I'm gonna drive through New Jersey, I'll stop at the cemetery. And you know, I think at this time in my life, when I drive up to the cemetery now I'm at a point where I'm just like, I feel a sense of peace when I'm there and there was one time where. I stopped at Starbucks. I got a little treat. I sat there at the grave. I had my tea, I had my treat 'cause that's what my mom and I used to do. And um, I had such a feeling of peace as though. She was right there with me. So her spirit was there. I felt it. And you know, at times it feels so peaceful for me. And of course there's times when it's sad. Um, but, you know, I guess that brings me to, to balance. So how can we balance out our grief to keep our souls calm? What do you recommend? 

​

[00:24:39] Alfredo Santiago: Well, but you just, just what you just mentioned that was still look very unique, very personal, right? Like that for you, for that, that minutes that you were there, brought you a lot of peace and connection. So, um, being aware of what connects you, um, sounds like you wanna go to a cemetery, uh, go to somewhere outdoors. Uh, it could be a lake, a river, a ocean. Sometime it's, uh, a, a special spot that you shared, you know, together a restaurant, uh, for people that different worship spaces, they might want to go and just reflect. I'm sometimes just sitting at a, a park bench, right? 

​

[00:25:14] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. 

​

[00:25:14] Alfredo Santiago: Um, I know my, my cousins, they like playing dominoes and they, uh, my father played dominoes, so sometimes I just watch them. I'm a terrible dominant player. Just a strategy to dominoes by the way. And, uh, just like cards, uh, and when I watch them play. It brings me, um, like joy because my father loved dominoes. Mm-hmm. And they, and I see their interactions and the words they say in Spanish that my father would use. And just moments like that bring comfort. They might not even know it, but as you're sitting there in that space, it fills you. So just it does, knowing what, knowing what you need, knowing what you need in the moment for that healing process. The healing process of your grief. Mm-hmm. 

​

[00:25:54] Betsy Cerulo: There have been times over the years that, um, you. I would set a place at the table at my grandmother's birthday or my mom's birthday. Um, my brother, who I'd earlier spoken of, who passed away on his birthday in October, I eat a piece of chocolate cake. Uh, I find it wherever I am. It may not even be the best kind of cake, but that's what I do on his birthday. 'cause he and I both loved it. So it's, you know, so I've learned over time, I have these little rituals that have gotten silly, but they bring me some comfort. 

​

[00:26:31] Alfredo Santiago: And because it does, it has a lot of value. We can't like minimize the value that it brings. Yeah. That it gives you and that it means to you and the connection in that moment. So that has a lot of value. Um, it's showing also self-compassion. Yeah. You know, compassion is not just going out, it's also like inward, right. I have to take care of myself, love me, comfort me. Mm-hmm. And hopefully there's others to help us along the journey. But, um, focusing on self-care and also knowing what I, what I need today to get through this day. Yeah. Hopefully something and something healthy.

[00:27:00] Betsy Cerulo: right? Yeah, definitely. I, um, I had a session with a, um, a shaman, uh. Gosh, when was it? Uh, over the past six months, and it was just talking about the losses in my family. And one of the things she had recommended is when I wanna have a conversation and talk to my mom or my grandmother or my brothers to light a candle. So I have, you know, a, a across in my office, I have, I'll call it a little altar with special things on it. And, um, when I feel that. Mode. I mean, I can talk to them anytime, but when I feel like I wanna have a certain type of conversation, I'll Jim, the lights, usually in the evening I'll light the candle and I'll just sit there and reflect or I'll ask a question and you know, again, this is something, it's simple. But it brings me a lot of peace as though I'm in relationship with them, whether or not their energy and their spirit was really there for me. I feel like, okay, we're here together and, and that has helped me a great deal. 

​

[00:28:11] Alfredo Santiago: No, it's interesting. Candles are, it's so symbolic for so many people in so many cultures.

​

[00:28:16] Betsy Cerulo: Yes. 

​

[00:28:17] Alfredo Santiago: Um, so I mean, for a lot of us, it, it, um, also stands for light in life. So a lot of people do reflect, um, having candles lit, um, you know, um. Was it Elton John? Um, the candle in the wind, the song. Yes. You know? Yeah. And talked a lot about light and you know, our, sometimes with their, um, we blow out the candle, um, but even as we blow the candle, there's still that, that smoke that Right, that kind of rises like almost embolic. Like it's not over. Even that we don't see that flame anymore. There's, there's still an essence around it. And so I, I really appreciate that, that, um, the candle lighting. Um, I also appreciate like the Buddhist edition of like ringing a bell. Just to kind of like center. Mm-hmm. Um, and just to be quiet for a moment and let you allow, allow yourself to feel relaxed. Allow yourself to feel your emotions. Allow yourself to feel connected. Um. Yeah, the quietness, there's, there's, there's a healing balm in the quietness and the intentional quietness to connect with the memory of our loved one. 

​

[00:29:19] Betsy Cerulo: Absolutely. And, you know, your, your expertise, your working with people who have come to you, whether it's specifically for grief or, or any other reason that they, they wanna do their inner work. So when you talk to a person who is reluctant, and I have certainly encountered people who are reluctant. To finding wellbeing support, what do you suggest to them to perhaps open their minds to the possibility?

[00:29:50] Alfredo Santiago: Um, a lot of times people are just guarded, right? Yeah. Because they may not be so, um. They may have a, may not have a lot of insight to what's going on in their mind, and maybe that's a protective mechanism also. So kind of respecting that and just, I think a lot of times just telling people when you're ready and if you're ready, and these are some resources for you, and you give them two or three and like, um, resources that are, that you could, they can access at any time. Right. Um, you know, I, you know. You don't have to speak to me, but, uh, I'm available when you're ready or, hey, you don't have to speak to me. Hopefully you'll find somebody that you feel comfortable with, um, to take some time out and to talk about what you're going through. And, and if a customer in genuine place, the person will receive it. And it's up to them right to, to, to make a decision whether they want to talk about it or not. Um. I, as a therapist, I would always say talking, um, speaking about what you're thinking and feeling, um, just acknowledges the truth, uh, of the emotion of the moments of your, of, of your personal belief, of your story. But some people may not be ready to share it, but just make yourself available that I'm, I'm here for you. Yeah. Or I can direct you to someone else. 

​

[00:31:02] Betsy Cerulo: Right. So you have, you've. Done this for a long time, and I know that there is a concept called transference. How do you care for yourself? Because you are receiving a lot of pain when people are talking to you. So what do you do as, as the receiver to care for yourself? 

​

[00:31:27] Alfredo Santiago: Well, part of the self-care conversation is, um, to be self-aware. You have to be self-aware. So to know, um, how I'm feeling today. Um, am I able to, um, discuss this serious topic with someone, um, knowing that after this, or maybe I need to be very present in this moment. Um, ready or not? I have to be present in this moment, but the aftercare, I might have to go for a walk, drink a water, um, put on my favorite music, um, movements. I definitely believe, um, music and movement really helps people heal. Um, it doesn't matter if you're, um, uh, have, have any physical disabilities, even in your seats, you know, just movement and just to kind of get familiar with your body and how you're feeling in the moment.

​

[00:32:14] Betsy Cerulo: I, I, that is, I have certainly done a lot of different work where. Movement and music have been wonderful. And then the, the journaling of the feeling. Sometimes there's, there's so much that that comes out in the written word, however you choose, whether you're on a computer, whether you're doing pen and paper. Uh, so there's, there are so many ways that people can work through whatever they're experiencing, whether it's whatever. Piece of grief. Part of grief that they're, uh, working through. So, you know, I I, I wanna ask you, as we're bringing our conversation to a close, what little kernel of wisdom would you leave for someone give to someone about grief?

​

[00:33:08] Alfredo Santiago: Um, I'm gonna say this and I don't want to, hopefully it doesn't sound cliche, but you are not alone. A lot of times we feel this deep sadness and aloneness because a person is not long, no longer with me or us. Um, but you're not alone because there are other people to support you. They may not be able to be that, they're not gonna be that person. They, they don't replace your loved one. Um, but connections are so important. Um, and we're talking about, you know, losing employment like you had an identity, but because you have certain gifts, that those gifts and that identity can shift and go in a different direction. So know you're like your self value, that you have value as a person attached to a person, attached to a job, attached to a space. Um, but also as we detached, we still carry that with us, right? That doesn't just get, um. Cut off, there's no longer a connection to that person that plays that position. Um, that is still part of our experience and part of our whole narrative, our life narrative. Yeah. 

​

[00:34:16] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. And you know, sometimes with that type of loss, it, it opens something up for the future. And even though in the moment someone can't see it, I've certainly been there where I just can't see it yet, is too. At some point in your process or your feeling is to leave yourself open to a possibility, however that could look 

​

[00:34:42] Alfredo Santiago: and to acknowledge maybe today I'm not ready. 

​

[00:34:44] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. 

​

[00:34:44] Alfredo Santiago: And I, and I probably will be ready tomorrow. Mm-hmm. But then I'm open maybe, you know, in a year from now, two years from now. Now what I never do is tell people that you should be over it by now.

[00:34:53] Betsy Cerulo: No. Never been anything 

​

[00:34:54] Alfredo Santiago: for too long. That is the most insensitive, um, comedy you can ever make telling anyone, or you'll get over it in, uh, two or three more months. You never put a timeline on grief. Mm-hmm. Because you never know what's gonna trigger and bring it to the surface again. 

​

[00:35:07] Betsy Cerulo: Right. You could have someone, you have lost someone. Decades ago and something comes across you that just triggers an emotion of whatever that could be. And, and yeah, we have to acknowledge it, be sensitive 'cause when, when we squelch it, it takes even longer to, uh, not get over it, but it takes even longer to readjust. 

​

[00:35:34] Alfredo Santiago: To Readjust ii, I just wanted to say, a lot of times when we talk about grief, this is. It's like a sadness. It's not a happy topic, but the happiness and the joy is that I was connected to this person who I, who I loved and who loved me, and why am I missing them? Why am I hurting so much? Why is this so intense that you start remembering why you love them, why they love you? Then you start, um, reflecting on the memories. Um, and I should, and that should make you, um, have joy. Um. My father told terrible jokes, and so do I. 'cause I realized people, I can see the way people like, uh, respond to my jokes, but I, it, it makes me laugh that he told terrible jokes and he didn't care if he got a response or not. And I have his DNA, so I had that characteristic also. And then I start laughing when I see people, I say, oh, they didn't get it. Yeah, I didn't deliver it or I didn't deliver it very well. And so I chuckle because. It reminds me of my father. Right. I don't break, I don't cry. I don't get serious. I laugh out loud. Yeah. Yeah. So all the memories don't necessarily mean that it's gonna evoke sadness. Sometimes it'll make us smile from ear to ear. Sometimes there's just an inside, just a comfort, you know that that person and that moment you feel connected to them again, and just that moment that you're having and appreciating that moment.

​

[00:36:52] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. Grief is a form of love. 

​

[00:36:56] Alfredo Santiago: Yes. I, I, amen to that. 

​

[00:36:58] Betsy Cerulo: Yes, 

​

[00:36:59] Alfredo Santiago: I totally, I, yes, there's a form of love. I, this is such a profound loss because I love this person so much that it has, has, has made, um, impact, yeah. In my heart and my emotions, in my life 

​

[00:37:11] Betsy Cerulo: and, and honor it. Um, you know, one last thing. One of the things, when I have gone through a loss, I seem to have given myself permission to, well, maybe I'll stay in bed a little bit longer. Maybe I'll say no to that. Maybe I will eat that extra dish of pasta to make me feel good. But I, it was, it was, I noticed that over the different times that I've had lost that I would, I would give myself more permission to be. 

​

[00:37:44] Alfredo Santiago: That's self care. Again, that's self-compassion. So that should be something that you should practice, uh, and feel okay with it. Mm-hmm. Because at the, on the other side of that, there's some people who. Who feel guilty about feeling happy or by doing something [00:38:00] joyful, like they're not supposed to feel joy. Some cultures that you grieve for a year. Yeah. It's almost like if you do anything that doesn't, that brings you joy in that year. It's almost like, like sinful, you know? Like, uh, but no, like you're, you're allowed to experience joy. 

​

[00:38:14] Betsy Cerulo: Yeah. Um, 

​

[00:38:14] Alfredo Santiago: your loved one, I will hope, will want to experience that. You'll experience joy. 

​

[00:38:18] Betsy Cerulo: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, Alfredo, um, if any of our listeners would like to have a more in depth private conversation with you, what is the best way for them to reach you?

​

[00:38:32] Alfredo Santiago: Well, um, I'm, I work at Chief Brexton Health Services. Um, it's a small, um. Community health center in Maryland and what I work at a Baltimore office specifically, so they can reach me at my email, which is the easiest way, is ASantiago@chasebrexton.org, aSantiago@chasebrexton.org. Whether they're a patient here or not, I can make myself available to, um, give them resources locally or nationally.

​

[00:39:02] Betsy Cerulo: Wonderful. Well, Alfredo, thank you so much for this conversation. It is meaningful. It is a topic that we encounter every day, and I appreciate your willingness and your vulnerability to talk about your own experience as, because when we share our own, it tends to help open up something else for somebody.

​

[00:39:26] Alfredo Santiago: Well, I thank you for the invitation and I thank you for your sharing your, um, your stories about your loss and how you comforted yourself. I really, I really appreciate it that it brings a lot of, um, comfort to other people I'm sure who are listening and watching this morning. 

​

[00:39:39] Betsy Cerulo: Thank you. Well, listeners, we complete our show today on grief. May you find so much love in your heart and be gentle with yourself and know that you can find us anytime and just continue to love. And again, grief is a form of love. So take good care and thanks for listening today. 

​

[00:40:01] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Room at the Table. If you've enjoyed this episode, follow us on your favorite listening platform. And share this episode with a colleague or two or three for resources to help you lead with purpose and build more equitable workplaces. Visit room at the table podcast com.